42. Is It Toxic - or Just Emotionally Immature? How Powerful Women Lead in Male-Dominated Workplaces
You finally reach senior leadership, but the room feels different than you imagined. You're interrupted mid-sentence, told to smile more during conflict, labeled as too intense when you hold people accountable. The shock isn't that these things happen. It’s that they happen at the top, in rooms where you thought respect would be a given.
After years of leading in male-dominated spaces and coaching women through these exact situations, I've learned to recognize the difference between a truly toxic culture and one that's emotionally underdeveloped. Most organizations have dysfunction. But knowing which type you're dealing with changes everything about how you respond.
Tune in this week as I break down what women aren't told about power at the top. You’ll learn specific tools for navigating dysfunctional cultures, understanding when feedback is about their discomfort versus your performance, and knowing when it's time to walk—but from clarity, not exhaustion.
Interested in working with me? Book a free 1:1 consultation here!
What You’ll Learn from this Episode:
The difference between toxic cultures and dysfunctional ones.
Why emotional safety often declines as you rise to senior leadership positions.
How women lose status when expressing anger while men gain it - and what to do about it
3 tools for holding your power in dysfunctional cultures.
5 signs you're internalizing a broken culture instead of leading through it.
When to walk away from power, not exhaustion, and how to leave without emotional baggage.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
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People Accept Anger In Men, But Women Who Lose Their Temper Are Seen As Less Competent - Yale University study
Full Episode Transcript:
You thought the hard part was getting a seat at the table. But once you got there, you were interrupted, dismissed, overlooked, challenged, and made to feel wrong for showing up in your full power. Not because you're under-qualified, but because your presence disrupts the norm. So now you're wondering, is this place toxic or just what leadership looks like at the top?
Here's the gut punch. If you don't figure that out, you'll either burn out or keep dragging the same bad boss energy with you from job to job. Today, we're breaking it down. What's actually toxic? And what's just emotionally underdeveloped? How to hold your power without shrinking or self abandoning? And how to know when it's time to walk, but from clarity, not exhaustion. Because confidence isn't built in safe rooms. It's built when you learn to lead yourself, even in rooms that aren't ready for you.
Welcome to The Balanced Leader, hosted by Yann Dang, a Leadership and Life Coach with over 20 years of corporate experience. Drawing from her journey as a former global finance leader and second-generation immigrant, Yann understands the unique challenges women face in male-dominated workplaces.
Each episode offers insights on balancing masculine and feminine energies, mastering soft skills, and building emotional intelligence. Join us to transform frustration into empowerment and unlock your authentic leadership potential.
Hey podcast listeners, welcome to today's episode. It's so great to be here with all of you. Today we are going to tackle a big topic that a lot of women who have come to me for coaching or advice or mentorship have asked me, which is, is my environment, is my culture toxic or is it me? We are going to dive into what women aren't told about the power at the top.
What if your boss isn't actually toxic, but just emotionally underdeveloped? Today's episode is going to contain real, unfiltered examples of what women face in male-dominated leadership cultures, being interrupted, being called difficult. I am also going to share the B word here because lots of people have been hearing this. And if you have little ones in the car, grab your headphones. And if you've ever thought, is this me, you're about to find out.
This is going to be one of the most important episodes, especially if you are struggling right now, especially if you're wondering about leaving your job, if you're wondering about if you're really cut out for this thing, or if you're even wondering about how normal this is. I'm going to pull back the curtains. I'm going to share with you what I have learned in my years of leading in male-dominated spaces and with the women that I've coached. And I'm going to teach you in this episode, the difference between a truly toxic culture and one that is emotionally underdeveloped.
And if we think about it, if I zoom out and we look at our patriarchal society and we look at the structures from which a lot of companies have grown, we are dealing with systematic structures that were not built for high achieving women leaders showing up very powerfully, very strongly. Oftentimes, high achieving women enter these spaces and they experience lots of things that they feel are not normal, and they feel very isolated. And sometimes they even feel ashamed, like, should I be able to handle all of this? Am I making a big drama out of something that's not? Or maybe they're on the opposite fence of that and they're feeling lots of fear and they're like, there's something wrong with me and they've internalized that.
So, we're going to uncover all of that. I am going to walk you through this and we are going to really dive into specific examples so that you understand this. So let's just talk about this first. I want to say, if you're a high achieving woman in male-dominated space, that you're not crazy. You're at the top. This is just what we want to all understand that being at the top in these very male dominated, patriarchal systems, oftentimes, we are blindsided by what we notice.
Many women reach these senior level positions and what it actually feels like versus the vision in their head where they're like, wow, I finally have the title. I finally have a seat at the table. I finally don't need to prove myself. Only to find themselves talked over mid-sentence, told to smile more during conflict, labeled as too intense or not a team player. And one client was even called a bitch in a meeting for calmly pointing out a misdeliverable and holding the bankers accountable.
So, I want to normalize all of this for you. I want to normalize if you have experienced any of these things. You didn't become difficult. You became unignorable. And that's actually a good thing. But it's also threatening in a system where power is still coded male.
You want to notice what this is. There's a perspective lens that I give my clients, which is to really understand that sometimes people have reactions to you and it has more to do with them than with you. And you need to have a reaction to yourself to have that bigger understanding, that bigger perspective of, wow, this person is reacting in some way where it is impacting me, is having me question myself, but I'm still grounded in who I am.
So we're going to talk about these things because oftentimes when you are the only one and you've got lots of self-defeating thoughts coming up and you're feeling lots of fear and maybe your emotions are not regulated, your thought about the situation could be much bigger and much more out of perspective than it could be, which would create more empowerment. If you had a perspective that was grounded in more facts, grounded in more curiosity and also knowing that you are in a space that you're charting new territory.
That you are, as you are leading, you are also training and you are also getting a lot of feedback that is coming your way because people have not experienced your type of leadership before, or you as a woman, taking up a lot of space and a lot of power and being a badass kickass woman in the workplace that is highly threatening for people. So we're going to unpack all of this. I know I said a lot of things, but let's dive in deeper. Let's first talk about toxic versus typical and how to tell the difference.
There is, and I share this with people that are starting to hit new levels of leadership. As you hit new levels of leadership, you are going to experience different types of personalities. They're going to be more abrasive, maybe they're more powerful. Maybe in your mind, it's what you consider toxic, but you're going to experience what I also say is you're going to meet more assholes. Like that's just true. And that could be men and that could be women. You are going to meet more bad characters that have gotten really far in their career for the intelligence they bring, for the clarity they bring, for the accountability they bring.
This isn't the type of leadership that maybe somebody who's aspiring to be like Adam Grant's leader person. This isn't the type of leaders that you read about and that you're like, oh my god, I want to work for this leader. They're going to be leaders that kind of shock you and you're going to be a little bit like, wow, I can't believe that these leaders react in this way.
But I want to clarify the difference between toxic and a dysfunctional culture because there is a difference and it's super important, especially if you are a woman leader who wants to make a big impact in their industry, pave the way for more women and help to shift the culture and change the structure. At the same time, feeling authentic and clear about who you are. Let's dive into this.
A toxic culture is where there is intentional emotional harm, conscious gaslighting, retaliation, and mindful exclusion. You feel unsafe and disoriented in these types of culture. And a dysfunctional culture is one where there's emotionally immature leadership, unchecked biases and low awareness. It's not personal, but still painful if you don't have the tools.
And I want to say that these two definitions are not that different, right? So it's really hard to discern and tell the difference. So I'm going to talk more about what this is like. But really what I'm showing up here is that there is one where, wow, it's a really toxic culture. There's another thought that, okay, this is a dysfunctional culture, which by the way, most cultures have some sort of dysfunction in it. This is just reality.
Every family has their dysfunction. It is just part of being in a group and a system. There's nothing that's perfect. But understanding that dysfunction, understanding the emotional maturity level of the leaders in it and their ability to react to situations and their level of awareness can also help you to see, wow, this is really like a dysfunctional thing versus this is super toxic.
When we think about it as being toxic, and there are some things that are toxic and I'm going to give you a checklist at the end of this. When we think about it as being toxic, before we dive into, wow, is this just dysfunctional? Is this something that I can help change or fix versus it's toxic. When we think it's just toxic, our minds go into survival, and it goes into more of this like, there's no way out. It's toxic. It's like a disease. You either have it or you don't. Where, as if you think about something as more dysfunctional, you're like, well, it's dysfunctional, but I can work with it. I'm good at working with all of these things.
And I want to share with you my mindset because when I started dealing with a very abrasive boss that was super difficult, and I was already pretty skilled at working with difficult people, but I had never had a boss who openly yelled at me in front of other people. And I want to say, yes, there's some shocking feelings about that. Like that's super toxic. Why would that happen, right?
But I'm also noticing that when I was at that level and when I started hitting that leadership level, I noticed seeing that with other groups, men getting yelled at by other men. And I realized, wow, this is not that special to me. It's not because I'm a woman, it's not because I am being put on the side. It is just what is happening at this leadership level. And it is dysfunctional, but knowing that this is not personal, really helped me to learn how to navigate the system versus feeling like I'm stuck in this toxic situation. I learned the skills to navigate it. And I reframed it for myself.
Not all dysfunction is toxic, but it will feel toxic if you don't know how to protect your energy. And if you are seeing this as a very narrow path and that there's not a lot of expansiveness that you can do to help yourself internally, to create safety for yourself. And what you have to notice if you're in this space is that you don't have to tolerate it, but you also can't assume the next organization will be better if you're bringing the same pattern with you.
If you are scared of these people, if you're scared of asshole characters, abrasive characters, then every time you go to an interview and there is a whiff of something that feels dysfunctional to you, you will run away. You will go into the next direction. And this is very limiting for you.
I talk to a lot of women who come to me and they're like, I need to leave this situation. It is not working for me. I am actively looking for the next job. But before we just dive into, okay, great, let's look for the next job. I really asked them what are the challenges that you're facing. And oftentimes what I notice when I'm talking to these women is these are challenges around self-leadership. These are challenges around learning how to take care of yourself, your energy, and how to consciously deal with the dysfunction versus feel like it's all toxic.
Because when we feel like things are all toxic, we create a really small box for us. There's going to be a lot of dysfunction, a lot of chaos in the world, just as it is with AI technology, with lots of things happening with our administration. There's just a lot of things and technology is moving quicker and quicker. So you need to be the type of person who can lead yourself through these things and know the difference between truly toxic cultures versus dysfunctional culture and chaos.
If you don't claim your own leadership, the culture will define you for you. So this is really about you claiming your own leadership and taking care of yourself. Because I tell people, this is a choice. You can either work on your pattern and how to lead yourself despite being dismissed, despite being interrupted. You can learn to be the person who is not dismissible. I actually took this work on myself where I learned to be like people can't ignore me. My energy, my conviction is so strong that people cannot ignore me. The way that I carry myself, the responsibility that I hold for myself and my impact and intentionality when I enter a room is such that I define the room. It doesn't define me.
But you need to know this, right? Otherwise, if you come in trying to read the room, hoping to get approved, hoping to be likable in these male-dominated spaces at these higher next levels of leadership, you are going to be more shocked and you're going to be more thinking about how toxic this is.
Let me tell you more about why the higher you climb, the less safe it will feel. Emotional safety often declines as you rise to this next power. If you think about emotional safety, it's like, I feel safe. I've done this before. I understand what it feels like to be in this space, to manage these people.
And for me, when I was in sort of middle management, I knew very clearly what it felt like to please my authorities or when I say authority, I'm really talking about my boss, to really see what's important to them, to predict what they needed, to be really good about serving what they needed. But when you become a senior leader, where you have lots of peers and you're still managing likability and you're still working on gaining trust by everyone, which is important. You're also trying to establish your own authority. Your own authority as the leader in the room versus just appeasing leader. You're learning how to be the leader for yourself.
And how to juggle that between likability and authority? Because women leaders are praised for being warm and often they're penalized for being firm. There's actually a study that Yale did that found that when men express anger at work, they are seen as more competent, they gain in status, whereas women are actually seen as less competent and less worthy of leadership. So there's that double edged sword, which feels totally unfair and also feels very limiting.
And so the burden of being the only woman, you oftentimes are also managing results and everyone else's emotion, because that is maybe the role that you've played historically.
And so I want to give you an example of this. One of the women that I was coaching was told, “Your confidence makes others feel small. You need to soften your delivery.” And at some point, it's not about skill, it's about whether you can stay whole. Like for her, she was like, but what do I do? I need to soften my delivery, but also hold people accountable. This is not easy. And so what I want to just zoom out and say is that at some point, it's not about a skill. It's really about you discerning what you want to be in that moment and how you want to take that feedback. It's also learning how to take that feedback in a way that's broadening your perspective. Who is giving you this feedback? How is this feedback helping them to feel more comfortable? Who are you being as a leader?
In another example, a client was actually in a very positive way, but of course it gave her a weird feeling. Like her boss literally said in front of her leadership team, “Claire is being a real bitch here and it's really serving the company.” So it was just like a weird thing for her. I mean, she does work in a very male-dominated space where she was like, okay, he clearly meant bitch in a very positive way, but I feel really shocked by it. This seems really odd. Why would we say these words? There's a connotation to it, right? And when she zoomed out, she was like, I could see that he was just really emotionally not mature about this stuff. Totally not PC, but he doesn't know that. He thinks he is making a positive comment to her.
And I remember another time even in my experience when my CEO told me, "Yann, you have my permission to be a bitch in this meeting." He wanted me to really hold somebody accountable. He wanted me to unleash on them, right? And of course he used the B-word, but it wasn't in a disrespectful way. But it was still the B-word. So I had some weird feelings about it, but I also felt very comfortable and calm in my authority and in who I was as a leader, where I didn't really allow it to rattle me, but did I have a moment of a little shock? Sure I did, right?
So as a woman in these male dominated spaces, you're going to be told things that are not always helpful, that almost seem toxic, but are clearly dysfunctional when you peel back the layers and when you think about the psychology of this and when you think about in a lot of spaces, being a bitch is a good thing. And claiming that for yourself and being like, yes, I am bitchy. I've worked really hard on this. I've been worked really hard on being clear and demanding and I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to lead, right?
But when the context is missing and you fill in the context with things that this is super toxic, oftentimes your thought is if I go to another culture, if I go to another place, things will feel different. I will feel differently about myself. Leadership will be nicer and more PC, but it's not always true, especially if you are a high achieving woman in a male dominated space trying to pave the way. But we need to take a step back and really understand the context of things so that we can discern what's the difference between toxic and just dysfunctional or underdeveloped.
I'll give you another example. A client came to me and said, I'm getting so much feedback about my maternity leave. She gets four months of maternity leave as part of her organization. And in her mind, she really wanted to be part of this big M&A deal. And so she had told some of the leaders that she is intending to take three months instead of four. Of course, we talked about other things, but it was super interesting the type of feedback that she got from people.
The women leaders said, listen, you are a woman. I think you should definitely take four months and take your time that you wanted. You're also modeling this for a bunch of women on the team. Whereas men, including her husband were like, we are highly judged for taking too much time off. And if you want our advice or, you know, my advice is what some of her male mentors said, is to take as little as possible.
And so I told her, this is a perfect example where oftentimes when we are navigating ourselves in leadership and we're getting lots of mixed signals, you want to be able to zoom out and just understand the perspective of people that are giving you this advice. On one hand, these men are getting penalized. They're literally getting probably judged for taking too much time. And you would be like, this is a toxic culture, but it also could be one that's just very underdeveloped and full of fear, especially as things change. I know a lot of senior leaders are very scared of people working from home still.
And you might say that's outdated, that is emotionally immature, and you're right. It's true. But these groups of people and these organizations still need your help and still need your leadership. And by you being in there, understanding why they feel threatened and you understanding what that is about, you get to consciously decide for yourself what works best for you and how you want to forge your leadership, right? And not allow the culture to just define you.
And then also these women, maybe they have their own stuff where they're like, I should have taken more time. I wish somebody told me to take more time, right? But that's their story as well. So when I was coaching this woman, I said, at the end of the day, it's going to be your decision and you're going to want to have flexibility in it, but you just want to know other people, their judgments and their perspectives and how that's impacting the advice that they're giving you. And you get to decide for yourself, how do you want to operate in this culture? What feels most empowering to you?
Because it could look like really empowering to be like, yeah, let's just take the four months and not listen to the men. But it also doesn't feel super empowering if you really are like, I want to come back for this and it matters to me. Because if something really matters to a woman, even work, you should be able to make it so. And you're going to get judged by both sides. So your ability to take care of yourself in this and to connect with your own inner authority is going to help you feel grounded and feel more empowered to make any change you want to make versus feel impacted by the culture or feel like the culture is somehow judging you. Because it is. We're all in systems and there is going to be judgments, but we get to decide how the dysfunction, how much power this dysfunction or toxicity has over us.
So let me walk you into three tools for holding power in dysfunctional cultures. So we're shifting away from the toxic. I'm going to circle back on that, but let's talk about three tools to hold your power in this dysfunction. Number one, mirror, don't absorb. So stop internalizing leadership. Stop internalizing just what is happening. You want to again, broaden that perspective for yourself. Don't make their discomfort your identity. You want to notice why are they uncomfortable?
You know, it could sound like something like, “I noticed I was interrupted. I'd like to finish my thought.” Or you could be even more commanding. “Hey, I know you've got lots of things to say, but I'm not done yet. And then you can finish your thought.” So you want to be able to, you know, notice their own discomfort, but not make their discomfort a story about you.
The next one is leading without performance. Stop trying to over function to be respected. This is a go-to thing that a lot of women do and it has them being exhausted and burning out. So one of my clients, she actually stopped fixing her teammates' mistakes. She stopped using all of her energy to make sure everybody was happy and she stopped becoming the peacekeeper. And so what she ended up doing was leading more powerfully in her area, saying what's so and using her voice in a really empowering way.
Instead of being so scared of hurting people's feelings, she just said what was true and we really helped her align to what is in the best intention or the best purpose, the best use for the organization. And she used that to help guide her so that she would speak up more and just say what's so and hold team members accountable versus trying to fix team members' mistakes and just have herself be likable. She became more respectable by letting go of that likability piece.
And the next thing is to regulate. You want to regulate yourself and you want to notice when your emotions are being stirred up. I have lots of episodes on emotions and I'm going to be diving deeper into the subject because oftentimes when women are feeling emotions, lots of them, and they don't know how to deal with them, it can feel uncomfortable and it can feel like a lack of confidence in themselves because they're like, something's going on.
But one of the things that I want you working on is really to anchor yourself, to speak slower, to feel your feet. You want to feel grounded on earth, right? You want to feel steady in yourself. And you want to breathe before you speak. You don't need to fight for your power. You just need to return to it. And part of returning to it is taking a deep breath, asking yourself how you feel, noticing the sensations in your body.
I know those steps seem super simple, but there's a lot of research and a lot of neuroscience who talk about how this simple step helps you to connect back to your body, helps you connect back to your power, and has you showing up more emotionally regulated.
All right, so those were three things that you can do to support yourself. And here are five signs that you're internalizing a broken culture, right? I want you to notice this for yourself because again, this is super important as you discern, is this a broken culture? Is it toxic? But this is how you might be internalizing it.
One, you downplay ideas to avoid being too much. So you really try to soften what you say instead of getting really clear about it. Secondly, you say just or sorry more than you realize. You apologize for yourself often. Third, you rehearse your tone for days before giving feedback. You are really noticing yourself trying to be careful.
And fourth, you're exhausted, but not from work, but from the environment, from trying to please the environment and you are noticing there is an emotional toll on you because maybe you're feeling unsafe in the environment. And what people end up doing when they feel unsafe is their survival mode moves into action. And the women that I coach oftentimes, they take on more and more things trying to prove themselves, hoping that this feeling will go away.
And then fifth, you feel like you're the one who needs changing to fit in. You think that there's something wrong with you or you think this culture is just not right for you. Let's go to somewhere else. This is typically when you're feeling a lot of exhaustion and this isn't a strategy. These are really just survival cues. You weren't built to survive. You were built to lead and a lot of these internalized broken system pieces are how you are, you know, just trying to survive, which is exhausting because you are looking for validation outside of yourself. You are trying to manage the way people see you and it's that over managing it. It's the over managing how people are feeling and thinking about you and it creates exhaustion for you because you feel like you have to be perfect.
So those are just things that you want to notice because then if you notice that, then you can switch to instead of allowing this culture to define you, what we do together when I coach women on is building this muscle of inner authority, learning how to trust yourself and to discern and to be the person that doesn't need to outrun that asshole or that difficult person, but to be the person that can stand strong and firm and change the culture.
Because that is powerful and that is leadership and that is actually going to be so much more fun than hiding and running and feeling like you can't outrun toxicity. You get to be the person who knows how to deal with dysfunctional cultures and chaos in a way that brings you more empowerment and also empowers the people around them. And that is really about how you lead from your inner authority first.
So the last piece I do want to talk about is a checklist for you to notice, you know, when it's time to walk and how to do it in a clean way. Because I've also walked clients through circumstances where they have tried these things on, they've learned a lot for themselves. And this is what I want my clients to have. I want you to walk away knowing you tried your best and you learned, you got the juice out of everything this experience gave you. Not in a way where you're emotionally burnt out and need to take two years off, but in a way where you're like, I did it. I really pushed myself and I learned how to stand up for myself with these people. And I made a difference where I could and I am moving on to bigger and better things.
And I still got value even if this culture wasn't great, even if I didn't get all of the validation that I wanted, I am giving that to myself and I know the skills that I learned being in this place. It's like going to the gym and saying, I am going to give it my all. Or it's like going to do a sports, right? And having a match where you're like, wow, this team is so much better, so much bigger than me. And even if your team didn't win, but you guys rallied, you were in that team together and you pushed each other beyond what you thought was capable. You leave that field knowing that you're empowered and that you got what you wanted out of this tournament even if you didn't win.
So this is really about expanding our mindset and how we lead ourselves. So you don't own your trauma. You don't feel you're a victim to the environment. You don't leave burnt out. You actually leave from power. You don't leave with all of this emotional baggage, like all these terrible things happened. You leave knowing I did my best, I spoke up, I set boundaries, I reclaimed my energy and you're not escaping. You're not running away. You're choosing to consciously close the door on this chapter and you're elevating yourself and feeling empowered for that next thing. You're not just feeling like you're leaving a boss.
So don't just leave the boss. Leave the version of you who needed their approval. Because there is this approval piece where you're still feeling like the culture is not validating you. And what I'm going to tell you is if you are in a male-dominated culture, you should not expect to be validated, right? This is not an easy game. There's a reason why leadership for high achieving women is not super easy. There's a reason why only 8% of women executives feel consistently heard in high stake, high level meetings. This came from a Korn Ferry report. It's because this is not easy.
Learning to be the power in a room where power was not meant to be for you is not easy, but you are more than capable of this. But if your thoughts are this is toxic, this isn't for me, I can't do that, then you won't be able to overcome the challenge of what it takes to lead yourself internally. And this is what I'm talking about here. This is what's really on the line when you choose to run versus stay put and learn the skills.
Because if you stay put and learn the skills, you might not change the culture, but you will change as a person. You will leave in a much more empowered way, in a way where you feel like you can do anything, that you can work anywhere, where you can deal with people that are bad characters, bad behavior, whatever it is, because you have your own back. And that is at the end of the day, such a powerful tool.
You can change job titles, you can change jobs, you can change area codes, but if you don't shift how you see yourself, the same dynamic will follow you again and again, especially if you are a high-achieving woman. Even women that I know who have left cultures and gone to cultures where there's more women, they're like, oh my gosh, I am noticing the same thing. Their gender is different, but their behaviors are very similar.
This isn't about walking away and waiting for better leadership. It's about becoming someone who leads herself first. You're not here to shrink, perform or tolerate. You're here to disrupt, rise and stay authentically you while doing so and building that muscle that you are capable of shifting cultures, but only when you shift yourself first, when you own that inner authority for yourself.
All right, that was today's episode. I want you to go to school on asking yourself, is this toxic or just an emotionally underdeveloped dysfunctional culture that I can shape and that can help define me and my leadership?
I want you to really ask yourself those questions and see what is more empowering for you as you dive into that question and what's possible for you if you really became activated and engaged into your own leadership and really owning your inner authority.
Great to be with all of you. I can't wait to see you next week. Have a wonderful week ahead.
Thank you for being a part of The Balanced Leader community. We hope you found today's episode inspiring and actionable. For more resources and to connect with Yann, visit us at aspire-coaching.co. Until next time, keep leading with confidence and purpose.
Here's the gut punch. If you don't figure that out, you'll either burn out or keep dragging the same bad boss energy with you from job to job. Today, we're breaking it down. What's actually toxic? And what's just emotionally underdeveloped? How to hold your power without shrinking or self abandoning? And how to know when it's time to walk, but from clarity, not exhaustion. Because confidence isn't built in safe rooms. It's built when you learn to lead yourself, even in rooms that aren't ready for you.
Welcome to The Balanced Leader, hosted by Yann Dang, a Leadership and Life Coach with over 20 years of corporate experience. Drawing from her journey as a former global finance leader and second-generation immigrant, Yann understands the unique challenges women face in male-dominated workplaces.
Each episode offers insights on balancing masculine and feminine energies, mastering soft skills, and building emotional intelligence. Join us to transform frustration into empowerment and unlock your authentic leadership potential.
Hey podcast listeners, welcome to today's episode. It's so great to be here with all of you. Today we are going to tackle a big topic that a lot of women who have come to me for coaching or advice or mentorship have asked me, which is, is my environment, is my culture toxic or is it me? We are going to dive into what women aren't told about the power at the top.
What if your boss isn't actually toxic, but just emotionally underdeveloped? Today's episode is going to contain real, unfiltered examples of what women face in male-dominated leadership cultures, being interrupted, being called difficult. I am also going to share the B word here because lots of people have been hearing this. And if you have little ones in the car, grab your headphones. And if you've ever thought, is this me, you're about to find out.
This is going to be one of the most important episodes, especially if you are struggling right now, especially if you're wondering about leaving your job, if you're wondering about if you're really cut out for this thing, or if you're even wondering about how normal this is. I'm going to pull back the curtains. I'm going to share with you what I have learned in my years of leading in male-dominated spaces and with the women that I've coached. And I'm going to teach you in this episode, the difference between a truly toxic culture and one that is emotionally underdeveloped.
And if we think about it, if I zoom out and we look at our patriarchal society and we look at the structures from which a lot of companies have grown, we are dealing with systematic structures that were not built for high achieving women leaders showing up very powerfully, very strongly. Oftentimes, high achieving women enter these spaces and they experience lots of things that they feel are not normal, and they feel very isolated. And sometimes they even feel ashamed, like, should I be able to handle all of this? Am I making a big drama out of something that's not? Or maybe they're on the opposite fence of that and they're feeling lots of fear and they're like, there's something wrong with me and they've internalized that.
So, we're going to uncover all of that. I am going to walk you through this and we are going to really dive into specific examples so that you understand this. So let's just talk about this first. I want to say, if you're a high achieving woman in male-dominated space, that you're not crazy. You're at the top. This is just what we want to all understand that being at the top in these very male dominated, patriarchal systems, oftentimes, we are blindsided by what we notice.
Many women reach these senior level positions and what it actually feels like versus the vision in their head where they're like, wow, I finally have the title. I finally have a seat at the table. I finally don't need to prove myself. Only to find themselves talked over mid-sentence, told to smile more during conflict, labeled as too intense or not a team player. And one client was even called a bitch in a meeting for calmly pointing out a misdeliverable and holding the bankers accountable.
So, I want to normalize all of this for you. I want to normalize if you have experienced any of these things. You didn't become difficult. You became unignorable. And that's actually a good thing. But it's also threatening in a system where power is still coded male.
You want to notice what this is. There's a perspective lens that I give my clients, which is to really understand that sometimes people have reactions to you and it has more to do with them than with you. And you need to have a reaction to yourself to have that bigger understanding, that bigger perspective of, wow, this person is reacting in some way where it is impacting me, is having me question myself, but I'm still grounded in who I am.
So we're going to talk about these things because oftentimes when you are the only one and you've got lots of self-defeating thoughts coming up and you're feeling lots of fear and maybe your emotions are not regulated, your thought about the situation could be much bigger and much more out of perspective than it could be, which would create more empowerment. If you had a perspective that was grounded in more facts, grounded in more curiosity and also knowing that you are in a space that you're charting new territory.
That you are, as you are leading, you are also training and you are also getting a lot of feedback that is coming your way because people have not experienced your type of leadership before, or you as a woman, taking up a lot of space and a lot of power and being a badass kickass woman in the workplace that is highly threatening for people. So we're going to unpack all of this. I know I said a lot of things, but let's dive in deeper. Let's first talk about toxic versus typical and how to tell the difference.
There is, and I share this with people that are starting to hit new levels of leadership. As you hit new levels of leadership, you are going to experience different types of personalities. They're going to be more abrasive, maybe they're more powerful. Maybe in your mind, it's what you consider toxic, but you're going to experience what I also say is you're going to meet more assholes. Like that's just true. And that could be men and that could be women. You are going to meet more bad characters that have gotten really far in their career for the intelligence they bring, for the clarity they bring, for the accountability they bring.
This isn't the type of leadership that maybe somebody who's aspiring to be like Adam Grant's leader person. This isn't the type of leaders that you read about and that you're like, oh my god, I want to work for this leader. They're going to be leaders that kind of shock you and you're going to be a little bit like, wow, I can't believe that these leaders react in this way.
But I want to clarify the difference between toxic and a dysfunctional culture because there is a difference and it's super important, especially if you are a woman leader who wants to make a big impact in their industry, pave the way for more women and help to shift the culture and change the structure. At the same time, feeling authentic and clear about who you are. Let's dive into this.
A toxic culture is where there is intentional emotional harm, conscious gaslighting, retaliation, and mindful exclusion. You feel unsafe and disoriented in these types of culture. And a dysfunctional culture is one where there's emotionally immature leadership, unchecked biases and low awareness. It's not personal, but still painful if you don't have the tools.
And I want to say that these two definitions are not that different, right? So it's really hard to discern and tell the difference. So I'm going to talk more about what this is like. But really what I'm showing up here is that there is one where, wow, it's a really toxic culture. There's another thought that, okay, this is a dysfunctional culture, which by the way, most cultures have some sort of dysfunction in it. This is just reality.
Every family has their dysfunction. It is just part of being in a group and a system. There's nothing that's perfect. But understanding that dysfunction, understanding the emotional maturity level of the leaders in it and their ability to react to situations and their level of awareness can also help you to see, wow, this is really like a dysfunctional thing versus this is super toxic.
When we think about it as being toxic, and there are some things that are toxic and I'm going to give you a checklist at the end of this. When we think about it as being toxic, before we dive into, wow, is this just dysfunctional? Is this something that I can help change or fix versus it's toxic. When we think it's just toxic, our minds go into survival, and it goes into more of this like, there's no way out. It's toxic. It's like a disease. You either have it or you don't. Where, as if you think about something as more dysfunctional, you're like, well, it's dysfunctional, but I can work with it. I'm good at working with all of these things.
And I want to share with you my mindset because when I started dealing with a very abrasive boss that was super difficult, and I was already pretty skilled at working with difficult people, but I had never had a boss who openly yelled at me in front of other people. And I want to say, yes, there's some shocking feelings about that. Like that's super toxic. Why would that happen, right?
But I'm also noticing that when I was at that level and when I started hitting that leadership level, I noticed seeing that with other groups, men getting yelled at by other men. And I realized, wow, this is not that special to me. It's not because I'm a woman, it's not because I am being put on the side. It is just what is happening at this leadership level. And it is dysfunctional, but knowing that this is not personal, really helped me to learn how to navigate the system versus feeling like I'm stuck in this toxic situation. I learned the skills to navigate it. And I reframed it for myself.
Not all dysfunction is toxic, but it will feel toxic if you don't know how to protect your energy. And if you are seeing this as a very narrow path and that there's not a lot of expansiveness that you can do to help yourself internally, to create safety for yourself. And what you have to notice if you're in this space is that you don't have to tolerate it, but you also can't assume the next organization will be better if you're bringing the same pattern with you.
If you are scared of these people, if you're scared of asshole characters, abrasive characters, then every time you go to an interview and there is a whiff of something that feels dysfunctional to you, you will run away. You will go into the next direction. And this is very limiting for you.
I talk to a lot of women who come to me and they're like, I need to leave this situation. It is not working for me. I am actively looking for the next job. But before we just dive into, okay, great, let's look for the next job. I really asked them what are the challenges that you're facing. And oftentimes what I notice when I'm talking to these women is these are challenges around self-leadership. These are challenges around learning how to take care of yourself, your energy, and how to consciously deal with the dysfunction versus feel like it's all toxic.
Because when we feel like things are all toxic, we create a really small box for us. There's going to be a lot of dysfunction, a lot of chaos in the world, just as it is with AI technology, with lots of things happening with our administration. There's just a lot of things and technology is moving quicker and quicker. So you need to be the type of person who can lead yourself through these things and know the difference between truly toxic cultures versus dysfunctional culture and chaos.
If you don't claim your own leadership, the culture will define you for you. So this is really about you claiming your own leadership and taking care of yourself. Because I tell people, this is a choice. You can either work on your pattern and how to lead yourself despite being dismissed, despite being interrupted. You can learn to be the person who is not dismissible. I actually took this work on myself where I learned to be like people can't ignore me. My energy, my conviction is so strong that people cannot ignore me. The way that I carry myself, the responsibility that I hold for myself and my impact and intentionality when I enter a room is such that I define the room. It doesn't define me.
But you need to know this, right? Otherwise, if you come in trying to read the room, hoping to get approved, hoping to be likable in these male-dominated spaces at these higher next levels of leadership, you are going to be more shocked and you're going to be more thinking about how toxic this is.
Let me tell you more about why the higher you climb, the less safe it will feel. Emotional safety often declines as you rise to this next power. If you think about emotional safety, it's like, I feel safe. I've done this before. I understand what it feels like to be in this space, to manage these people.
And for me, when I was in sort of middle management, I knew very clearly what it felt like to please my authorities or when I say authority, I'm really talking about my boss, to really see what's important to them, to predict what they needed, to be really good about serving what they needed. But when you become a senior leader, where you have lots of peers and you're still managing likability and you're still working on gaining trust by everyone, which is important. You're also trying to establish your own authority. Your own authority as the leader in the room versus just appeasing leader. You're learning how to be the leader for yourself.
And how to juggle that between likability and authority? Because women leaders are praised for being warm and often they're penalized for being firm. There's actually a study that Yale did that found that when men express anger at work, they are seen as more competent, they gain in status, whereas women are actually seen as less competent and less worthy of leadership. So there's that double edged sword, which feels totally unfair and also feels very limiting.
And so the burden of being the only woman, you oftentimes are also managing results and everyone else's emotion, because that is maybe the role that you've played historically.
And so I want to give you an example of this. One of the women that I was coaching was told, “Your confidence makes others feel small. You need to soften your delivery.” And at some point, it's not about skill, it's about whether you can stay whole. Like for her, she was like, but what do I do? I need to soften my delivery, but also hold people accountable. This is not easy. And so what I want to just zoom out and say is that at some point, it's not about a skill. It's really about you discerning what you want to be in that moment and how you want to take that feedback. It's also learning how to take that feedback in a way that's broadening your perspective. Who is giving you this feedback? How is this feedback helping them to feel more comfortable? Who are you being as a leader?
In another example, a client was actually in a very positive way, but of course it gave her a weird feeling. Like her boss literally said in front of her leadership team, “Claire is being a real bitch here and it's really serving the company.” So it was just like a weird thing for her. I mean, she does work in a very male-dominated space where she was like, okay, he clearly meant bitch in a very positive way, but I feel really shocked by it. This seems really odd. Why would we say these words? There's a connotation to it, right? And when she zoomed out, she was like, I could see that he was just really emotionally not mature about this stuff. Totally not PC, but he doesn't know that. He thinks he is making a positive comment to her.
And I remember another time even in my experience when my CEO told me, "Yann, you have my permission to be a bitch in this meeting." He wanted me to really hold somebody accountable. He wanted me to unleash on them, right? And of course he used the B-word, but it wasn't in a disrespectful way. But it was still the B-word. So I had some weird feelings about it, but I also felt very comfortable and calm in my authority and in who I was as a leader, where I didn't really allow it to rattle me, but did I have a moment of a little shock? Sure I did, right?
So as a woman in these male dominated spaces, you're going to be told things that are not always helpful, that almost seem toxic, but are clearly dysfunctional when you peel back the layers and when you think about the psychology of this and when you think about in a lot of spaces, being a bitch is a good thing. And claiming that for yourself and being like, yes, I am bitchy. I've worked really hard on this. I've been worked really hard on being clear and demanding and I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to lead, right?
But when the context is missing and you fill in the context with things that this is super toxic, oftentimes your thought is if I go to another culture, if I go to another place, things will feel different. I will feel differently about myself. Leadership will be nicer and more PC, but it's not always true, especially if you are a high achieving woman in a male dominated space trying to pave the way. But we need to take a step back and really understand the context of things so that we can discern what's the difference between toxic and just dysfunctional or underdeveloped.
I'll give you another example. A client came to me and said, I'm getting so much feedback about my maternity leave. She gets four months of maternity leave as part of her organization. And in her mind, she really wanted to be part of this big M&A deal. And so she had told some of the leaders that she is intending to take three months instead of four. Of course, we talked about other things, but it was super interesting the type of feedback that she got from people.
The women leaders said, listen, you are a woman. I think you should definitely take four months and take your time that you wanted. You're also modeling this for a bunch of women on the team. Whereas men, including her husband were like, we are highly judged for taking too much time off. And if you want our advice or, you know, my advice is what some of her male mentors said, is to take as little as possible.
And so I told her, this is a perfect example where oftentimes when we are navigating ourselves in leadership and we're getting lots of mixed signals, you want to be able to zoom out and just understand the perspective of people that are giving you this advice. On one hand, these men are getting penalized. They're literally getting probably judged for taking too much time. And you would be like, this is a toxic culture, but it also could be one that's just very underdeveloped and full of fear, especially as things change. I know a lot of senior leaders are very scared of people working from home still.
And you might say that's outdated, that is emotionally immature, and you're right. It's true. But these groups of people and these organizations still need your help and still need your leadership. And by you being in there, understanding why they feel threatened and you understanding what that is about, you get to consciously decide for yourself what works best for you and how you want to forge your leadership, right? And not allow the culture to just define you.
And then also these women, maybe they have their own stuff where they're like, I should have taken more time. I wish somebody told me to take more time, right? But that's their story as well. So when I was coaching this woman, I said, at the end of the day, it's going to be your decision and you're going to want to have flexibility in it, but you just want to know other people, their judgments and their perspectives and how that's impacting the advice that they're giving you. And you get to decide for yourself, how do you want to operate in this culture? What feels most empowering to you?
Because it could look like really empowering to be like, yeah, let's just take the four months and not listen to the men. But it also doesn't feel super empowering if you really are like, I want to come back for this and it matters to me. Because if something really matters to a woman, even work, you should be able to make it so. And you're going to get judged by both sides. So your ability to take care of yourself in this and to connect with your own inner authority is going to help you feel grounded and feel more empowered to make any change you want to make versus feel impacted by the culture or feel like the culture is somehow judging you. Because it is. We're all in systems and there is going to be judgments, but we get to decide how the dysfunction, how much power this dysfunction or toxicity has over us.
So let me walk you into three tools for holding power in dysfunctional cultures. So we're shifting away from the toxic. I'm going to circle back on that, but let's talk about three tools to hold your power in this dysfunction. Number one, mirror, don't absorb. So stop internalizing leadership. Stop internalizing just what is happening. You want to again, broaden that perspective for yourself. Don't make their discomfort your identity. You want to notice why are they uncomfortable?
You know, it could sound like something like, “I noticed I was interrupted. I'd like to finish my thought.” Or you could be even more commanding. “Hey, I know you've got lots of things to say, but I'm not done yet. And then you can finish your thought.” So you want to be able to, you know, notice their own discomfort, but not make their discomfort a story about you.
The next one is leading without performance. Stop trying to over function to be respected. This is a go-to thing that a lot of women do and it has them being exhausted and burning out. So one of my clients, she actually stopped fixing her teammates' mistakes. She stopped using all of her energy to make sure everybody was happy and she stopped becoming the peacekeeper. And so what she ended up doing was leading more powerfully in her area, saying what's so and using her voice in a really empowering way.
Instead of being so scared of hurting people's feelings, she just said what was true and we really helped her align to what is in the best intention or the best purpose, the best use for the organization. And she used that to help guide her so that she would speak up more and just say what's so and hold team members accountable versus trying to fix team members' mistakes and just have herself be likable. She became more respectable by letting go of that likability piece.
And the next thing is to regulate. You want to regulate yourself and you want to notice when your emotions are being stirred up. I have lots of episodes on emotions and I'm going to be diving deeper into the subject because oftentimes when women are feeling emotions, lots of them, and they don't know how to deal with them, it can feel uncomfortable and it can feel like a lack of confidence in themselves because they're like, something's going on.
But one of the things that I want you working on is really to anchor yourself, to speak slower, to feel your feet. You want to feel grounded on earth, right? You want to feel steady in yourself. And you want to breathe before you speak. You don't need to fight for your power. You just need to return to it. And part of returning to it is taking a deep breath, asking yourself how you feel, noticing the sensations in your body.
I know those steps seem super simple, but there's a lot of research and a lot of neuroscience who talk about how this simple step helps you to connect back to your body, helps you connect back to your power, and has you showing up more emotionally regulated.
All right, so those were three things that you can do to support yourself. And here are five signs that you're internalizing a broken culture, right? I want you to notice this for yourself because again, this is super important as you discern, is this a broken culture? Is it toxic? But this is how you might be internalizing it.
One, you downplay ideas to avoid being too much. So you really try to soften what you say instead of getting really clear about it. Secondly, you say just or sorry more than you realize. You apologize for yourself often. Third, you rehearse your tone for days before giving feedback. You are really noticing yourself trying to be careful.
And fourth, you're exhausted, but not from work, but from the environment, from trying to please the environment and you are noticing there is an emotional toll on you because maybe you're feeling unsafe in the environment. And what people end up doing when they feel unsafe is their survival mode moves into action. And the women that I coach oftentimes, they take on more and more things trying to prove themselves, hoping that this feeling will go away.
And then fifth, you feel like you're the one who needs changing to fit in. You think that there's something wrong with you or you think this culture is just not right for you. Let's go to somewhere else. This is typically when you're feeling a lot of exhaustion and this isn't a strategy. These are really just survival cues. You weren't built to survive. You were built to lead and a lot of these internalized broken system pieces are how you are, you know, just trying to survive, which is exhausting because you are looking for validation outside of yourself. You are trying to manage the way people see you and it's that over managing it. It's the over managing how people are feeling and thinking about you and it creates exhaustion for you because you feel like you have to be perfect.
So those are just things that you want to notice because then if you notice that, then you can switch to instead of allowing this culture to define you, what we do together when I coach women on is building this muscle of inner authority, learning how to trust yourself and to discern and to be the person that doesn't need to outrun that asshole or that difficult person, but to be the person that can stand strong and firm and change the culture.
Because that is powerful and that is leadership and that is actually going to be so much more fun than hiding and running and feeling like you can't outrun toxicity. You get to be the person who knows how to deal with dysfunctional cultures and chaos in a way that brings you more empowerment and also empowers the people around them. And that is really about how you lead from your inner authority first.
So the last piece I do want to talk about is a checklist for you to notice, you know, when it's time to walk and how to do it in a clean way. Because I've also walked clients through circumstances where they have tried these things on, they've learned a lot for themselves. And this is what I want my clients to have. I want you to walk away knowing you tried your best and you learned, you got the juice out of everything this experience gave you. Not in a way where you're emotionally burnt out and need to take two years off, but in a way where you're like, I did it. I really pushed myself and I learned how to stand up for myself with these people. And I made a difference where I could and I am moving on to bigger and better things.
And I still got value even if this culture wasn't great, even if I didn't get all of the validation that I wanted, I am giving that to myself and I know the skills that I learned being in this place. It's like going to the gym and saying, I am going to give it my all. Or it's like going to do a sports, right? And having a match where you're like, wow, this team is so much better, so much bigger than me. And even if your team didn't win, but you guys rallied, you were in that team together and you pushed each other beyond what you thought was capable. You leave that field knowing that you're empowered and that you got what you wanted out of this tournament even if you didn't win.
So this is really about expanding our mindset and how we lead ourselves. So you don't own your trauma. You don't feel you're a victim to the environment. You don't leave burnt out. You actually leave from power. You don't leave with all of this emotional baggage, like all these terrible things happened. You leave knowing I did my best, I spoke up, I set boundaries, I reclaimed my energy and you're not escaping. You're not running away. You're choosing to consciously close the door on this chapter and you're elevating yourself and feeling empowered for that next thing. You're not just feeling like you're leaving a boss.
So don't just leave the boss. Leave the version of you who needed their approval. Because there is this approval piece where you're still feeling like the culture is not validating you. And what I'm going to tell you is if you are in a male-dominated culture, you should not expect to be validated, right? This is not an easy game. There's a reason why leadership for high achieving women is not super easy. There's a reason why only 8% of women executives feel consistently heard in high stake, high level meetings. This came from a Korn Ferry report. It's because this is not easy.
Learning to be the power in a room where power was not meant to be for you is not easy, but you are more than capable of this. But if your thoughts are this is toxic, this isn't for me, I can't do that, then you won't be able to overcome the challenge of what it takes to lead yourself internally. And this is what I'm talking about here. This is what's really on the line when you choose to run versus stay put and learn the skills.
Because if you stay put and learn the skills, you might not change the culture, but you will change as a person. You will leave in a much more empowered way, in a way where you feel like you can do anything, that you can work anywhere, where you can deal with people that are bad characters, bad behavior, whatever it is, because you have your own back. And that is at the end of the day, such a powerful tool.
You can change job titles, you can change jobs, you can change area codes, but if you don't shift how you see yourself, the same dynamic will follow you again and again, especially if you are a high-achieving woman. Even women that I know who have left cultures and gone to cultures where there's more women, they're like, oh my gosh, I am noticing the same thing. Their gender is different, but their behaviors are very similar.
This isn't about walking away and waiting for better leadership. It's about becoming someone who leads herself first. You're not here to shrink, perform or tolerate. You're here to disrupt, rise and stay authentically you while doing so and building that muscle that you are capable of shifting cultures, but only when you shift yourself first, when you own that inner authority for yourself.
All right, that was today's episode. I want you to go to school on asking yourself, is this toxic or just an emotionally underdeveloped dysfunctional culture that I can shape and that can help define me and my leadership?
I want you to really ask yourself those questions and see what is more empowering for you as you dive into that question and what's possible for you if you really became activated and engaged into your own leadership and really owning your inner authority.
Great to be with all of you. I can't wait to see you next week. Have a wonderful week ahead.
Thank you for being a part of The Balanced Leader community. We hope you found today's episode inspiring and actionable. For more resources and to connect with Yann, visit us at aspire-coaching.co. Until next time, keep leading with confidence and purpose.
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